Pharma Insights 🩺

[Music]

[Music]

all well hello everyone and welcome to

another exciting episode of Pharma

insights the talk show brought to you by

platfor force where we explore the

intersections of Technology strategy and

Innovation at the pharmaceutical

industry as you may already know my name

is l Cel and I'll will be one of your

moderators for today in today discussion

we will navigate the second part of our

CRM landscape episode uh the shift from

rep Centric to content Centric

strategies as you may recall we have

already started this conversation back

in June and now we will be exploring the

second part into the changes and

incorporation we can expect in the

future I want to say tell you and that

if you haven't watched the first part

you always welcome to watch our content

on the month I promise you are not going

to uh you're not you're going to love it

as you may know this episode will be

also C moderated by uh Stefan raing head

of marketing here at plat Force let me

introduce him hi Steph how are you doing

today hey hello hello I hope everyone's

great I'm great already because well

this episode is sponsored by October

1 no I'm joking um it's not sponsored by

October 1 I just have a funny thing here

uh but the dream force uh conference was

quite interesting um there is certainly

a few talks that a few part which I

liked about the platform talks and you

know um of course the dream Force showed

us uh the AI capabilities that

Salesforce is going to is going to use

in particular Einstein H but without

further Ado let's introduce our other

guests uh because we have like it's full

of a 18 players you know like let's have

it okay so let me welcome our first

guest FL Florent Edward hi Florent how

are you doing today hello good afternoon

good good evening everyone or good

morning maybe to you I don't

know we are a worldwi platform so you

can be whatever in the world I'm I'm in

France I'm in Paris so I'm there you go

there you go uh now we're are going to

introduce Chris Wade hi Chris how are

you doing today hi everyone lovely to

see you again and but not least phip bit

hello Phillip how are you doing hey guys

hey guys good afternoon I'm doing great

I'm doing great happy to hear that so uh

for our all attendees you know how this

works for the new ones we will love to

hear from you so please drop your

comments or your questions into the live

chat of our stream we have melon Duro

the social media Guru here at platfor

and she's going to introduce your ideas

to the panel so you can actually live

interact with them I invite you I

encourage you to do it so without any

further delay I think we are ready to

start this incredible talk

step fre Floren Philip Flor um actually

let Philip Philip had a we had a

pre-show uh before the episode and

Philip had a few interesting ideas a few

notes he has scrible down I think those

are quite controversial I'd like to

start with those pH you want you want to

take the

microphone no I I think I just want to

start also with just positioning some of

the the things right because we we said

okay we want to evolve or we have this

conversation around evolving from rep

Centric to uh to content Centric and I

think it might be interesting just to

frame when we talk about rep Centric to

content Centric what it what it actually

means right and I'll I'll give you my

few Sense on it we're in we're an

interesting phase of the year right

everybody's building their I think we're

we're very close to finalizing budgets

so most of the countries are are there

and they're building their tactical

plans or strategic and then tactical

plans if you would look tomorrow at a

tactical plan from a certain country

that is repc Centric you would probably

see there oh we're having in our first

sales cycle we're having a detail Aid

we're doing this activity and in a

second sales cycle we're doing a webinar

there's a high focus on these most of

them rep driven um content pieces that

are coming coming to life and also some

other channel activities if you would

then move over to to to countries that

are more focused on a Content Centric

strategy they have a certain approach to

saying what are the key messages for

each segment that we need to be driving

in a certain sales cycle and how do we

going to replace that key key message

that message focus is it on launching a

new product on Awareness on MOA on

safety and efficacy data and how are we

going to deploy that across with using

certain engagement tactics across

certain channels with a certain

experience so I always say like if you

would show me two tactical plans we can

probably already say is that is that

come to your Market more focused web

Centric that channel Centric uh area or

is it more driven by already a more

strategic point of view with uh with

putting content um centrally in that

engagement that's basically those two

those two approaches and they also

provide you with a very different

maturity level of um is it this more a

maturity level that is focusing on

activating the field or is there also a

powerful marketing team behind this

really driving both sales and direct

marketing

activity I don't know and and Flor how

you how you see this topic with um rep

Centric and and content

Centric so um that's a very good that's

a very good question I what I've

observed and as I was telling you know

Stefan earlier uh today I'm a free man I

finish my job withal tomorrow I start my

job in sopi I'm in between the two so

can speak

absolutely what I have observed in my in

my years in in Pharma that whether it

was with Novartis asraa or others or gal

looking forward to SFI is in fact

companies are Centric by function what I

mean by that is marketing is generally

product

Centric you will have medical with K

Centric then you will have sales with

rep Centric and then you know all of

those are disconnected so traditionally

we had beautiful marketing strategies

not completely fueled by medical

evidence that were not delivered by

sales because reps wanted to do

something else what that means in terms

of supporting systems or CRM platforms

and stuff like that that the marketeers

never wanted to dirty their fingers by

using any kind of system they just

wanted to do PowerPoint that was good

enough then you had the sales who were

dumped on a 200 Page detail Ed that made

absolutely no sense in a three minute

call in the corridor with a doctor so

they were kind of doing whatever they

wanted and you know taking some abstract

I even saw in a former life reps going

onto the internet and printing

PowerPoint presentations to go to the

doctor I don't recommend that it's not

compliant don't do it some did it right

uh and and and then you you had no one

really taking care of the content and in

fact when you think about it if you

bring in the customer himself at the

center the customer is the one that

makes the joint between the content the

rep the the Medics and the marketeers

and I really think

any content Centric system organization

or way of working needs to account who

is going to look at that content how are

they going to consume it where do they

want to see it what format and all that

and then we can have a real efficient

content Centric approach to uh the

customer needs basically so there is

something around the the customer that

is very important in that

critic guys is there a difference

between content cetric evidence

centry do you see the two as being

interchangeable or is content

delivering I something in addition to

sharing the evidence that we have around

you know treatment

X disease area y this is what we know

this is what the trials have told us

this is what our real world evidence is

telling us who who are you ask King the

medical guy or the marketing guy the

guy the medical guy will tell you

there's no difference the marketing guy

will tell you oh my stating is better

than your stating oh far better than

your

Statin no when you look at it from

content point I mean there's a lot of

transactional content as well right

especi so I think I would say content is

a bit broader than than pure uh evidence

based so I think it's a broader category

um that's it hey Chris how how do you

see the how do you see from your point

of view this this rep Centric and and

and content Centric piece

I think the rep Centric is pretty well

it's comfortable territory I guess this

is where most organizations certainly

anybody who's had kind of CRM in their

job title in the last 20 odd years is

essentially to Florence point is kind of

living in that world where I'm in this

I'm in this corner of the office and we

think about reps and we think about hcp

engagement because that's what our guys

are measured of um and even we don't

know or perhaps we don't really care

what other parts of the

organization um are trying to achieve be

it around K's be it around you know you

know other you know other other sort of

particular tactics or or outcomes

um I think the um the shift it implies

that I guess if if it's trying to imply

anything it's not just saying same sh

you know same you know same or same or

same instrument different tune so we're

trying to do something that is broader

than just what a rep does by being able

to apply content in a cleverer broader

way across our different channels of

Engagement um so you know and I remember

you know the session that uh that you

know that brought your colleagues you

know Nick and uh name um presented it uh

at next farmer saying like the majority

of Engagement now is being driven

digitally you know in grel you know when

you look at just numbers on the page

there's more going on on the digital

Outreach side than on the on the the the

the physical side so so that's you know

that Demands a lot of content that

Demands a more you know content but is

it content Centric is it customac

Centric I think content in itself just

saying making a straight switch from rep

to content kind of you could find

yourself trapped in the same place but

just looking at different things you

still could be just talking about a

field Channel I'm thinking more about

what I'm feeding them with what I'm help

you know what information I'm trying to

you know or or or materials I'm creating

to support what they're trying to do but

it's not really actually changing what

we're doing or how we're doing it it's

just hopefully you know moving away from

a 200 Page detail Aid to something

that's a bit more succinct a bit more

focused a bit more

flexible I I think it will drive that

conversation on that you need to change

as an organization because if if by

Nature you go always to the rep as a

first B basically the detail a is your

your your your reference point right

it's your one source of Truth and then

so people build the detail a and based

on that uh they build a few adding

emails so they go to this rep plus model

I position and I follow up with one or

two emails that's it the big

St that's Inception that's that you know

that's that's for me the Inception of

the problem we have with customers this

is why they trust external websites more

than company Pharma company websites

this is why they don't want to see rapes

with are another detailed because what

we propose to them is not what they want

to consume it's not in the format they

want to consume it it's not delivered

the way they want they want it delivered

and you know Chris made the point that

and that's true that uh we have

delivered in gental in 2024 and

consistently more face Toof face more

digital interactions than face tof face

interactions and when we say

interactions it's really someone

interacting with a gental Content but we

were able to do that because we said the

rep the cam is the orchestrator of the

whole experience but you know we drive

the campaigns uh toward the customers

yeah and I can tell you we recently I

did the AI layer on top of it and we

have reached unseen for us level of

Click through which are in the double

digits and having double digits on

emails to hcps double digit click

through rates is amazing for us so we

really think that this is where the key

is in making sure customer and content

are really really aligned and fine tuned

yeah I agree agree but I think once you

start shifting to that what you just

said you're you're driving more and more

campaigns so so instead of instead of a

marketeer producing I'm producing

content detail AES for the rep yeah that

marketeer starts to own his his part of

the engagement roll like I said rolling

up a sleeve so it's it's if you start

taking small step away from that rep

towards a a different way of thinking

about an engagement for the marketeer

it's a massive shift also for the rep

but for the the marketeer it's it's

great and we also been refer referencing

to the rep as it is a valid option but

some some companies also have a go-to

market challenge where the rep is not

always a solution now some of the rare

disease options or some of the countries

that that are working in in in consumer

health or whatever so sometimes the rep

is not always there is no rep first

option so and I think it it's these

companies that's starting to have okay

I'm bringing a product to Market it has

a goto Market model which is not uh is

not an easy ticket to say okay I'm

putting in um uh 25 or 30 rep in France

and that will solve the the issue no

it's it's more difficult because uh we

need to find our patients we're a very

rare disease how do we deal with this is

these companies that I see making bigger

steps because they see Omni Channel or

multi or the engagement question itself

yeah as a as a way to solve their goto

Market issue in launch and that's where

I that's and the slowest movers for me

are the countries that that are still

very comfortable in this oh we got reps

that are for me are the slowest movers

today so I see I see difference and that

can be different speeds in the same

company sometimes but isn't the starting

point in that if you if you if you are

operating in a rep Centric way and you

ask the question what does my customer

Universe look like you know you know

what are the boundaries of it are we

talking about a single specialty or

maybe a couple of or a particular subset

you know how we basically targeted and

said you know so the the

the customer Universe for my sales team

is very specific because I'm really

going to be thinking hard about where

does it make sense where am I going to

get impact and hopefully

prescribing from the the work that sales

the sales team doing that's what their

job is but that's not the same thing as

the the kind of the the broader you know

Universe of healthcare professionals who

are involved in that patient Journey so

when you think about rare disease

classic case is yes you've got a tiny

treatment population you know

potentially minute at a country level

couple of you know and a and a tertiary

Center that has a you know similar

number of of Specialists so but what you

do have is an enormously long chain of

referral that you're saying you're

trying to help people who are never

going to be at the point of

treatment understand that this this

condition exists this is what you can be

aware of etc etc sort of more from Med

medical education standpoint it's still

marketing um and I says unless you're

talking about treatments which are

really only used in primary care as soon

as you've got any kind of referral then

you've got a much bigger sort of set of

Allied audiences you know other

Specialties other roles who you're never

going to put a rep in front of them you

know unless they happen to come to a

lunch and alert or something like that

you know almost by by by by you know by

luck but this is that sort of broader

audience where and I'm not surprised you

know I'm delighted and not very

surprised that you know you're seeing

the impact of utilizing AI to help shape

campaign design and to sort of come up

with you know not a customer Journey

that started its life as a thousand

Post-it notes on a wall but it's

something which you are generating

dynamically on that you know n of one

because you can and this is where we

just and this is you know I think we're

going to I don't know if this is the

point we kind of make a little sidew

step and say actually it's not about

content centricity it's about AI

centricity because AI will be the you

know is the difference you know around

not just which customer you're selecting

or which piece of content you're

selecting but how do you synthesize it

you know well I think just just to build

on your point I think it's going to be

interesting to look at after you know

six months one year of usage of the next

best action to

see what's the share of the next best

action that are a cam or a rep needs to

go through the doctor and how many times

the AI will say well in fact what we

need is to make this available for that

doctor through one channel or another

you know having

that uh function neutral ey on our data

that's going to tell us really in fact

what you need is to do a series of 25

webinars where you invite the people and

then you have a follow up with a cam who

brings in additional

materials when we will be at that level

then we'll be able to optimize our model

because the challenge of the model is to

your point Philip multiple geographies

but also products that are very

different from something that you need a

Nerf to apply or an injection in the

knee or something like that to something

that is at the end of life and you know

nearly uh

generified the Comm ation model are

fundamentally different so to to

understand that complexity the help of

AI will be absolutely fundamental

because it's going to be databased it's

going to tell us this work that work

fully agree but what I what we now see

is when we talk about Omni Channel and

engagement I say we always talk about

this at a very very tactical level it's

always about at which channels are

preferred by physicians in Spain versus

I mean but what we know talk what I see

now is the conversations I have and

those are really interesting is that how

can Omni Channel help within certain

commercialization models which I have

across my portfolio and is this is this

a brand that I need to launch is this a

brand or product that requires extra

nurture on medical education do I do I

dare need to deploy a very different set

of of tacticals and more profound robust

content where we extend medad or is it

or is this a is this a product at the

end of life cycle which where I need to

reduce my field Force to actually deploy

a very different model and this is this

is where the conversation with people in

in the roles that I see today in

commercial Excellence too far away

sometimes from the launch and from that

commercial that early conversation on

how do we deploy a commercial model and

which capabilities do I activate

depending on the type of product the

type of Physicians my my my universe and

my market that's that's for me that's

sometimes where it already goes wrong on

when they do okay very easy oh we need

10 reps because those 10 reps need to do

X number of volume calls and they you

know the the market sizing assignments

that we had in the past and that's where

it sometimes already goes wrong I think

yeah but those model so I I've worked on

those models right so uh those models

are all built on the same thing it's a

traditional S curve of response of you

know consumer versus you know pressure

commercial pressure versus consumer this

model in healthare is broken it's it's

not working anymore it's not because you

are going to reach a specific frequency

of coal that you are going to sell more

that your product is going to be better

for so I I think we yeah we really need

to get out and away from this approach

agree we got questions yeah we have

questions so the first one is a question

to the panelist how is the rep role

defined is it inform informed

orchestrators or orchestrated executors

the discussion needs to be interpreted

in a very different ways based on the

answer to this critical question who

wants to tackle

that should we go it should we go it

depends yeah no that's that's a very

good question I think um it's it depends

on the market you're in and specifically

the type of product that you have

so we go from let's go to the two

extremes you will have in Specialty Care

you will have in oncology you will have

in rare disease key account managers who

are going to help a doctor improve his

medical practice that may require of

course knowing the product knowing the

science and being able to talk about the

product but also being able to spot the

patient in the US being able to follow

uh the benefits realization of the

patient so that the patient is eligible

for the therapy the scheduling the the

the supply of the medicine to to the

practice they may need to have to help

in there so it's a very specific job at

the other end of the spectrum you will

still have some markets who are very

share of Mind driven for some products

in uh the physician's mind we see that

for instance if you take Spain Spain is

an interesting country because when a

generic enter the market in Germany the

original the original is toast in a week

or in a month right produ sales go down

M nothing left no business in Spain

there is still a really you know brand

Equity existing in the market and the

originator keeps being promoted through

set rep who just go around and help the

doctor and remind the doctor prod for 10

years so I think that's a very

transactional role while your first role

is as a very close proximity to The

Physician as a very more in very close

role to that physici and

practice my my my belief that the first

one is going to grow in terms of

importance also because we see the

evolution of the portfolio of the Pharma

company going toward those products more

while the other one is going to go down

and potentially be you know replaced by

digital platforms and digital

Solutions it's also margin question I

mean it's there's a commercial side to

this as well well I guys so there's

there's that as well but but isn't there

also a question you know in stepan's

question it's the both qu both both

options have orchestration in the in you

know in the

description frankly I think you know I

think in most organ in lot of

organizations it's a myth there's no

orchestration at the rep level what what

could he orchestrate today what could

they can orchestrate their own choice of

act you know what they do as them how

can they orchestrate NE necessarily what

another part of the business is doing

they could orchestrate their scope which

is they could show detail a slide one or

two or three that's it and then they can

send an so the the and of course how

they approach The Physician more from an

exper but they're they're due to the

nature and setup of of of uh the rep is

is basically Limited in their potential

to orchestrate yeah but it depend what

you give them as tools I mean you know

they can always call in an MSL which is

something generally requested but if you

give them library of contents that they

can tap into based on the physician

demands or again you know if they are

equipped with a real file on their

customer that tell them that Chris is

interested into this while Philip is

interested into that then they can go up

and pick some elements and and try some

content with that customer but again it

it that's the informed orchestrate right

they're feed in they can do a Prof iling

or they they know by Nature this is a

person with and and the other part is

well it's it's the importance of feeding

back data so if if for example if if we

did automated drip campaigns they were

triggered by the rep or what Viva now

also has and we had it as well is they

can also stop it so they they do they do

have a valuable role in in leveraging

data which then of course what Florence

says it needs to happen but also feeding

back very close customer proximity data

which is almost impossible it's there's

a bias let's let let's be honest um and

when you ask when you ask your your your

reps to profile or or the asking the

question do you want to keep on seeing

reps or do you prefer digital that's

always this interesting thing but there

is a certain value in there so I think

this conversation does not have the

objective to saying that that there's no

value in the rep when employed or

equipped with with the tools that are

there today

yeah but orchestration implies that they

are doing something beyond their own

choice you know otherwise they're just

promot they're promoting which is fine

if if you if you've got a field team

which have got a range of content that

they can use they've got you know

different levers that they can pull in

terms of what they're doing when they're

with a customer that's fine but that's

just them doing their job orchestration

you know the what the promise of

orchestration was you've got somebody

who is kind of like CEO of their

territory

who's pulling all these levers that

influence how other parts of the

business can can can can bring

value and that requires a far deeper

level of interconnectivity of

integration whatever you want to call it

um across these different business

functions if it's just somebody if they

you say send me an email pick up the

phone or something like that I'll see if

I can help yeah that's that's that's but

Chris what could happen is let's say

your Market team as as um as a webinar

campaign and and basically they asked

the Reps to saying to probe or to to ask

the right questions to probe if that

would be an interesting uh Target for

that webinar campaign for any other

campaign y that's that's how they could

trigger feedback to marketing saying

guys this is this this physician is

interested in patient cases or this

physician is interested in knowing more

about this or that's something that is

being being used today know yeah Absolut

of course it is but it's the the the

promise of orchestration is up here yeah

the reality of what's happening when

this is mostly stuff that's happening

via email that that conversation that

the the brand team will be sending out

an email or sending out a poll or

something like

that to to you know to their their

colleagues in the field organization

saying hey we've got this event coming

up you

know who could you know who do you want

to have you know invited that sort of

stuff you know talking about

events I want to ring up the event that

happened uh a few days ago uh beginning

middle of the

month little the little one the little

one very small very poor and almost no

attendees that one I'm kidding um what

do you guys uh are your intakes

regarding that it's changing a little

bit of the topic but I think it's still

so we talk about dreamforce right just

to that everybody's on the same page

listening yeah we're talking about dream

Force um so that happened and they

brought a lot of um for the guys have

have not been there they had a lot of uh

discussion regarding healthc care and

the innovations that they're bringing to

the floor um so I want to know the take

of you guys into those uh into that

subject

because we we discuss pre- call

pre-event we discuss a little bit about

it so um what are you inex Phillip you

had quite a

lot no I it's it's this obvious cliche

to say it's super excited to live to

live and work in a time like this in in

in healthcare but I the the next the

past year was exciting right with the

announcement via it's already two years

ago Viva Salesforce Salesforce ivia you

know shaking hands and and saying we're

going to do this together and our

salesource bit by bit we get these small

nuggets of of of information how it's

going to play out or or at least a

feeling for the Ambitions and that that

makes it very very dynamic in our

industry which has been like a little

bit of constant on the tech side that we

had some excitement around customer data

platforms and automation but now it's

the next five years will be will be I

think

gamechanging and really driving

different visions and how we organize

ourselves as farma so I think that's

that's great stuff I was I was actually

excited by uh by everything which I have

seen um uh which I've seen from

dreamforce it's clear that what they

bring with life science Cloud it's it's

a very holistic platform very broad it

goes beyond commercial it's a very very

big big scope that they're taking the

second one there's a full integration

with their customer data uh solution

data clouds and AI is not a side tool

it's not a side gimmick every layer of

the platform is infused with AI solution

Einstein as a conversational partner as

really a a new buddy on your side to ask

and as a sparring partner to ask and to

get information so I think those two are

very interesting and what we also said I

think in the last webinar it's it will

be a game changer for marketing

functions this is really if you as a

marketeer if tomorrow you're your

company decides to to step to take the

step forward and go forward with

Salesforce as a companywide platform you

really need to Envision that this is

going to change your function Your Role

description as marketeer how they

operate the volume of content they

consume the bells and whistles they have

and the capabilities they have at their

disposal so it's really game-changing

for that um for that marketing and and

medical function by the way um so that's

that's my take on it but very excited

but it's still it's still early days

right they're still restricted uh in I

think in some Communications but it's I

think it's really good stuff that we're

seeing

G I think it's it it highlights that

sales for sign in CRM

business they're in the they are in the

platform business so when you look at

what their you know the definition of

Life Sciences Cloud it's in the name it

is a platform that for Life Sciences

businesses it's not about C

not about one part or the other it is

about all of it um so you know huge

ambition um they're doing similar things

in other industry sectors fintech

Automotive you know this is you know in

our little sort of like backyard of of

of of you know life science or Pharmacy

RM it's easy to forget there's a whole

world out there um so this is a big

strategy a big play from you know from

Salesforce

you think you know look at you know if

you follow some of the announcements

around agent force and stuff like that

so it's a whale

shift from the kind of transactional

tools that were the the sort of the

foundation to the business to where they

want to go to where the sort of you know

a effec the geni agent becomes the the

application so it is there's just you

know there are huge you know big problem

never forget these are marketing events

um so every time that you know it's not

the product engineering team that pays

for dreamforce it's marketing um Viva

Summit exactly the same it's paid for by

marketing so they're going to try and

put the most positive you know Spin and

gloss on everything that's being

announced and a lot of it is you know

kind of we'll see how it goes um and you

know wearing sort of my exeo hat you

know this is a comp itive space um and

you see you know they're not the only

platform game in town so you know the

platform we built on is Microsoft you

know huge platform player bour is you

know one of the you know one of the key

you know data platforms used across the

you know the business World globally not

just in life sciences teams all of these

other sort of core Microsoft components

um but it is a different architecture to

sales forces so you you know companies

will have to you know are facing some

very big decisions when they look at

their kind of holistic architecture um

around how do they manage their data how

do they manage the cost of data um you

know AI is very very data intensive so

that's not going to go away uh so you

know being able to do that and that's

all you know a huge part of what

Salesforce are promising their investors

is this is this pathway is the way is is

the way to grow um but at the m at the

micro level yeah there's some really

really interesting stuff that they're

talking about about shifting I guess

what we've thought sort of CRM is or has

been to what that to the way that

they're thinking about it uh so yeah I

mean it's always a great show you can't

you can't knock them uh but you know

there's lot there's lots to to kind of

try and digest and understand as to well

how is this going to play out over the

next sort of you know year year or two

um and what work are people going to buy

into it it's I guess the big

question

bant yeah so let's remind ourself that

we are having the discussion today

because uh Viva and Salesforce decided

to divorce right and they

decided we we the children would have to

pay for choosing who's gonna have the

pleasure to keep us right so that's a

little bit that's a little bit ironical

um but being a company where we we we

had half of our activity going through

via and half of it going through

Salesforce of course we had people at

dreamforce they were presenting what

gral was doing in terms of activity with

with Salesforce and we are we were

highly interested in in the in the

presentation from

Salesforce uh we think it's going to be

a game changer at least it rebalances

the odds because just two elements one

is the possibility that they will have

that we will have of using an agent

inside Salesforce to do the segmentation

using gni of the customers which

literally means if I am a rep uh de

enstein create the list of the 15 hcps

in my territory that are the most

interested into this topic and send them

an email with the right content inviting

them to a webinar yeah and you would you

should be able to do that which totally

changes the way you do segmentation and

targeting it's Dynamic segmentation

right but it's I saw I saw a video where

they talk about the the development of

AI exclusively for healthcare and how

it's going to be uh and how it's going

to be used in sfor and uh delivering

emails and and suggest even suggestion

how you can reach out to the customer

depending on the information that you

had already in in in hand in the store

and so that that breaks down the

complete you know usual commercial chain

of pharmer from marketeers preparing

contents being to be dispatched by RS in

a very disciplined manner with the right

frequency so you break that completely

then I'm going to see uh you as a

customer right and then I can say what

is she interested in what has she done

over the last six months what has she

seen and it's going me a full brief on

all the interaction and everything he

knows about you saying the most likely

topics to interest there right now

because she wanted to attend this

Congress in the past is what's going to

be the abstract on NEOS arthritis into

that Congress and so you can prepare

your call for that so again you know the

what has been the

the the repeat repeat message of all SF

people telling the the revs and the

camps you need to prepare your calls you

need to know your customer you need to

know your message you need to come in

with an objective suddenly you don't

have to scroll through dozens of pages

and notes and stuff helps you crappy

screens the system is going to tell you

exactly what you need to know when you

go into the cold so significant

different customer experience add a

result so I think it's this is why the

people at least were excited about it to

chis point is that marketing or will it

be a reality that's what we will need

time will then right yeah yeah I I think

there's always a few things that because

I mean we think it's great right but

it's like looking at the latest car and

seeing all of the options and then all

the whistles yeah and then there's two

things there's two things that kind of

bring you like oh wait uh there's one

can I operate them or do I have a team

to operate those bells and whistles and

then the second one is seeing the price

ticket of the of of the Bell so the

question for me is are we is this

something for the top 20 farmer

companies but what about the smaller

other ones is this is this uh is this

too big is this and the second one is if

tomorrow floron if you would if you

would launch this into a marketing team

what's the pathway to really making this

happen because what you said right it's

breaking the change of content it

impacts mlr it impacts uh the power

agencies have because this is this is

pretty impactful on the agency side as

well so there's also the pathway to

adoption towards

Excellence um maybe there's two

questions so the for which type of

customer is this um and the second one

is how how are you running this the

adoption path I saw not related to

Pharma but in the same event that there

were showcasing how Sophie I don't know

if you heard the asan the AI agent at

help in customer service but how it

worked and they showcase it that you can

include new uh task or new things for

Sophie to do but my question as uh I'm

not really into or I don't really get

I'm not into Sal it or software my

question would be will that be easy

enough for someone like me to understand

easily so I can incorporate that into my

into my business and if not how much

will cost me so it's go back to your

question Philip about pricing and time

adoption because those are things are

definitely going to be the to the

selection of the of the solution that

you're bringing to the table if it's

going to take too much time and too much

money to implement that then it doesn't

really make sense to make the change

does it yeah but at the same time you're

uh going to be stuck with something that

it's not very uh it's not developing or

it's not develop as self supp course it

is developing right now because AI is

inside the tool that you're using yeah

yeah so you got good news bad news good

news is it's this stuff is easier to

implement from a point of view techn

technically deploying it you're not

deploying 80 different systems yes so

one of the one of the big shifts that of

course the

platform the platform plays their

biggest argument for why invest in a

platform is it allows you to

consolidate and you know when you speak

to the cios the CTO you know what is it

that the gay getting beaten up beaten

over their head with by their CFO cost

of cloud services extraordinary numbers

these LGE particularly larger organiz

even midsize companies are paying for

their Cloud operations and everything

they do is cloud-base Nate it's almost

like so now you've got big a lot of big

companies looking for hybrid strategies

where actually it we should be bringing

some of our data back on Prem um you

know we should be recommissioning some

of sort of you know server capacity

because it's just costing us so much to

have it sort of wearing away in the

cloud and paying you know every terabyte

every day we're you know we're paying it

so it's that sort of that that big that

that net cost of ownership is is a big

concern for a lot of organizations and

they look at their sort of their entire

sort of data footprint so that's for

good news the bad news

is this is a revenue driver you know

they're not doing it out of the goodness

of their heart they're doing it to make

money you know these are

companies so the reason that you know

that they're that they're re

architecting the offering to making it

you know essentially AIC Centric sort of

that sort of next transition from sort

of an application you know an

application experience to an agent

experience

is that's going to generate a lot of

Revenue it's more profitable to do to to

do that and it also you know it

distinguishes what they can do and it's

a high investment for Salesforce as well

right I mean it is a high investment but

you know opening point they're a big

company um you know Microsoft spent $2

billion acquiring Nuance I don't know if

you guys are familiar with Nuance

they're know basically a health care AI

specialist they were one of the sort of

they did a lot in the sort of voice in

sort of voice

recognition very heavily used in the

sort of the health care sector in the US

so anything about comes like Epic and

stuff like that and they're actually in

the hospital in the provider space big

users of nuance so the kind of the kind

of money that's been put on the table to

kind of build this cap cap these

capabilities you know you look at the um

the large language space you know it

costs billions of dollars to to be able

to get into that world so that's why

there's so few players you know you've

got open AI you've got you know a

handful of others who are serious plays

in building these underlying models that

everything that Salesforce is doing

everything that we're doing is dependent

on on these large language or small

language models that costs billions to

you know hundred there hundreds of

millions to develop and are constantly

being redeveloped this pce of of of

model release is just terrifying um for

what it means for investment but this is

actually the underpinning for everything

that they're talking about at dreamforce

is based on you know these kinds of like

very very significant Investments and

you know making that then you know make

turning that into a profitable

profitable business so yeah so good news

is it's easy to deploy the bad news is

it's going to cost you more um and you

know when we look at the cost to

CRM this is going to dwarf that yeah but

it's it's apples and pairs right I mean

you cannot compare a CRM versus the

offering that we're seeing on the

table how how does the CRM engagement

automation platform and a CDP cost

versus what we're

seeing it will yes you're right at the

moment we kind of tend to ignore that

instead of say we're just looking at one

box and say oh our serum cost is this

and we

ignore the true cost of all of those

other components that we have in place

to actually make it work but this is

important right because can you still do

a business case where you're saying I'm

comparing my CRM uh let's say whatever

it is my current CRM with what I've

heard at dreamforce because

that's because when we in June we talked

about H it's it's it's not a war on crms

but we're comparing CRM we're not

comparing CRM systems anymore we're

comparing CRM system with the offering

that we're hearing and again right it's

the marketing offering but what we're

hearing is a CRM solution I think they

have an equation as well it's a CRM

solution it's a data it's a CDP there's

an AI engine and uh I'm hearing also

about the the data inputs it's it's it's

a more

holistic more total view right even if

via is doing their CRM with their

automation solution it's not covering

the same

scope but I really think I mean if you

want to go for the ri SL Financial angle

then you need to include everything and

by including everything I mean you need

to include the cost of the sales rep you

need to include the cost of the data

exactly to the point of a CD in the in

the in the mail I think you know just to

take to take an example a call with a

sales SHP cost let's say in average 80

EUR to 100 EUR right an interaction

through digital platform is less than

0.5 Euro so right now we are at 50/50

face to face and digital and with

marketing mix modeling I can know very

precisely what are the sales generated

by a call and what other the sales

generated by an approved email or a

marketing campaign yeah mix there are

there are you know statistical

mathematical ways to optimize your mix

based on the product life cycle you know

in same way when you have end of life

product with very small margins because

at the end of the day you got 98%

carryover on that product right so you

have 2% of addressable sales you're not

going to put a sales rate that's in of

course mathematically so I think there

are ways that to your point you you

can't just look at the cost of one

component in isolation it's a shift in

in a in a model um guys we have another

question regarding this uh one second

it's going to charge up in the screen

like with most AI system is it about the

information that fits it where does the

customer data comes from how expensive

it is how many different sources and who

owns

them iqv is one of the

sources that's been very I

mean have the cost and who no I'm

kidding no so there's it's it's a very

very important question right because if

you talk about I have low volume of

interactions I mean what can I do with

it so how I saw the model now from

dreamforce being built up they want to

maximize the number of data sources they

they they integrate right it's your own

engagement data your own first party

enriched with other sources but they

they really Envision like guys we can

offer you not a 360 but we we integrate

all of the engagement data from your

HPS um in into our data model so that's

what they do and then they they can

enrich it with third party data as well

um and I think um that that data Epi is

kind of an open model that they use on

the data site that's what I understood

from what I heard at dreamforce maybe

you guys can poses poses a fascinating

question though given

um the litigation that has existed

around the data space a lot of it comes

down to data

mixing you have you know once that data

goes into your AI you have no chain of

ownership any longer there's no water

chain any longer so you don't know what

it's going to be used for down you know

Downstream because there's literally no

way of of of tracking that um the nature

you know the nature of of what the data

is going through so it's a you know it

would be interesting to see how I know

iqv obviously have got you know a lot

invested in their relationship with

Salesforce but historically they

generally haven't been very happy about

mixing their data with other

providers um so you know that idea that

have a different partnership now right

they because they really set a dream

force that they can integrate IQ via

exponent data with with their Salesforce

solution so I assume that the

partnership they announced in what was

it April is really they're basically

they said their partnership is about OC

but what I now hear at dream for is the

partnership is not about OC it's really

about this data integration a lot more

yeah but there's a if you look if take

look at the US market there are a lot of

sources of data that companies can

choose to buy into yeah keeping that

that you know it's proprietary data you

can't just sort of buy it and and and

and and and mix it up because for

example thehc P side of it it's like

that whole side of you know you know

they retain ownership over the

underlying record and they're getting

changes being passed back so it would

just be interesting to see how that sort

of you know how that develops the

concept but you know the idea of a CDP

being fed by many data sources is kind

of that's what a CDP is supposed to do

it's sort of that's the name that's s of

like the name on the T um yeah so that's

going to be interesting I think it

depends how technically it's going to be

clustered because right now what we have

with those AI systems is some kind of

your private kind of AI right so if I

feed into it uh my customer data it

Remains Not accessible to anyone else

than me at least that's part of the

contract that we have like for instance

with Microsoft and if we wipe it it's

gone no one's going to be able to see it

anymore so I think it really it will

depend on the contract but I would

answer to the question ultimately all

the data comes from the customer

themselves and that's why one the EC

consents are critical and the way you

are going to manage your EC consent

policy strategy and communication to

customer is critical because already

gdpr forces us to tell people if we are

segmenting them why we are them there is

the communication aspect but there's

just segmentation also now yeah there

the data privacy part right what do I I

use your data to segment you or to

personalize that experience that's

that's

mely proactively say we are going to use

AI tools to do this and your a data will

be in an AI that we control and that no

one has access to so there is you know

that part of remembering that the data

is a customer customer own data yeah but

the fact that you use the customer data

to profile and to to segment in a

different way and therefore to tailor

the experience but it's more on the data

privacy side than I think on EC consent

but everything around gdpr EC consent

and then of course cookies because I

don't know how many people accept

cookies but it's a very limited uh a

limited group I think it's close to 20%

what I see from customers so it's it's

it's it's very limited but that's the

main issue and I think also what I hear

now from dreamforce the examples as well

as oh we're going to tailor the

experience and then you can reconnect it

with sales it's it's within the American

model because I mean I think what they

present at dreamforce is very focused

the use cases and the examples on the

American Market I mean because in Europe

that doesn't fly that that well some of

these examples so I think it would be

interesting to see um how does the how

do the dream force examples how do they

play out within the rules and and the

restrictions of Europe so I think that

would be a good one yeah um there is one

comment from Stefan says we aware no

information is a is as fresh and

granular as what a as as what a well

prepared and enabled rep is able in real

time well

engaging don't think it's a question I

think it's a

statement if you got a good r or a good

cam they will add a lot of value into

the mix and a lot of great information

into the right commercial model yeah

again that that well repaired rep in

your end of life product I mean so we

it's it's I think we we take that we

take that model and that life cycle and

that portfolio piece always out of the

question when it is rep versus digital

and it will the repap lose his job yeah

probably the repap that is that is that

is working with that end of life cycle

product could I mean but that's that's

something that's a completely different

different

aspect they'll move to a different

company because you know you won't have

you you don't have rips on end of life

do you yeah that's what

mean but I think to your to your point

on on you know the the dreamforce stuff

being very us Centric I think there's a

lot we can learn from what they can do

in the US now that could also benefit

hcps and patients in Europe because when

I see that you can use the claims data

in the US to identify the patients that

will most likely benefit on the long

term in terms of health Improvement

reduction of you know symptoms

consultations and drug usage uh because

they are on your treatment and you can

find out which hcps are treating those

patients potentially that means you can

have your whole organization delivering

the right message to a customer an hcp

that has the right patient and we are

not able to do that in Europe for many

reasons right but if we were able to do

that I would argue that we could deliver

a better targeted

individual the right doctor instead of

spamming everyone with message that no

one is reading anymore so because now

we're shooting we're shooting in that

we're hoping we're shooting the the

right so everything about the right

messes yeah so we're we're always kind

of uh we always do this with one eye

right we have information but we don't

have everything so coming back to your

CDP your Dynamic segmentation works but

it doesn't work with the same parameters

as us model and that makes it

more more difficult um in the right

direction right they're giving more

access to the NHS data and stuff like

that and it's a French saying that

so I like the the the holistic from

Stefan yeah I love the

htic I love the

world it say the question is how

integrate this rep Advantage into the

holistic data

model I I think it's everything what we

said about the rep feeding not only

using the crm2 is it Advantage but also

feeding back right but I I think so I

think it's it's the give and take and

the the rep as

um is a is a is a massive insightful

tool for any for anybody in the back end

of the organization but I could be I

could be cheeky and just say you know

give the rap a good AI to talk to and

that's going to transform the rape

information into good data we can have

in a

system but yeah but the starting point

is still you've got a you've got a

commercial model that actually is going

to benefit from having reps yeah that's

yeah we we kind of need to play in that

box now right so and then what then to

your point for it's like what do the

what do they actually need tool wise why

do they need an app made up of about a

squillion different forms that they've

got to go and sort of like you know

delve around to try and find anything

out that's not very helpful never has

been we've we've all been in the field

we've all been with people where trying

to read the C notes after you know being

on the ride along and see okay what did

he wrote down last time and just like

it's excruciating to enter the notes in

the system and it's excruciating to read

them next time customer so we definitely

need that data and that Insight but we

need better tools for the for the people

to put them in the system well we talk

about us the importance of getting the

data from the from the sales rep we said

that uh when you're at a meeting and you

need to be paying attention to the

person that you're speaking with because

it's not like like hey wait a second I'm

going to take this into notes so you

need to do two things at the same time

and sometimes you forget to take some

notes that were important that were

discussed or maybe you add bias uh we

discuss about the bias so you add that

into the into the notes you have taken

so um how having an AI assistant or some

some kind of support will help into

taking those notes um unfortunately look

at most of our CR tools there is no data

entry of any or me limited data entry in

terms of core recording it's been

stripped there's no free text it's a

couple of radio buttons a couple of

dropdowns it's it's just cor compliance

it's not cor it's not even cor record

yeah because free T free text would get

people uh yeah pretty anxious yeah I

know you you have some companies some

startups and know at least two

specifically us right now who uh offer

solutions to record what's happening

during the call and to summarize it at

the end so it's mostly for quality of

the rep purpose but you the technology

exists now so that it could I use it I

use Au as well I

mean that billion I told you about you

know listening to a healthc care

professional listening to a healthcare

you know an educated conversation

between a trained rep and a healthcare

professional

you know that's why you you know those

tools exist you know they've been out

there for quite a while so's nothing

it's nothing there's no technical

barrier to this that hasn't been for a

number of years but there's a huge

compliance barrier comp or thinking

barrier to sad it says oh we can't go

there you know and yet we turn it out

the other end saying our data is rubbish

you know I wonder why

yeah how can we solve this the US is not

only compliance it's also legal

everything that you record is FDA and

dog discoverable so that means if you

keep it you may be asked to give it you

know at the simple request and it

becomes a nightmare for the organization

if you destroy it then you are uh most

likely to have problems because they

will tell you if it was clean You' had

no reason to destroy

it yeah so it means something was dirty

and then you're told it's it's it's

Catch 22 so it's it's a complicated one

for some organization some some are

doing it and they probably found the

good legal way to set it up hey guys

talking about I I didn't see the the

element of Roop map but I followed a few

conversations on LinkedIn some people

were like oh the road map it's a bit

disappointing it will only launch in in

the summer 2025 but yeah this because of

the restrictions with the contract right

we know why don't we yeah so but just

just give a recap like why why are they

not launching earlier so maybe it's it's

it's a good one also no I think they

cannot they are not allowed to Launch

earlier so they plan right now release

in September 25 one in Feb 26 and then

more in July 26 and it's because of the

the divorce of the two parents right

because of Viva Salesforce the divorce

actually they're restricted so this also

means that everything that Viva is

announcing now on the it's called

campaign manager I think on the

automation side um that will

also and I think both parties will need

the time to for F develop probably so so

what we will hear in December from viva

or I think it's November now um that uh

that will also still take time right

until September

2025 yeah it's I mean and it's an

interesting time that you've got a load

of companies I mean you know speaking to

myself it's like we're in a whole pile

of different rfis and rfbs at the moment

because they're running assessments

they're making decisions about hey you

know we've been on Viva for you know 10

plus

years big changes coming we need to make

a decision and so they're looking at the

you know options out there and so we've

got we can see you know the SI have been

really busy sort of like helping them

sort of you know run assessment

processes and stuff like that and now

it's sort of sort of starting to sort of

like come out as you know whether it's

just like Discovery exercises or rfis

and things like that so there's you know

there's a lot of activity in the market

around just finding out what this future

is going to look like so you know

whether it's from viva Force you know if

you're doing an assessment today the

most of the people saying yeah we're

doing a CRM assessment but that's the

wrong convers because if you and I can

say because I'm not exeo so if you put

EXO and Viva and Salesforce that

basically it's also how do I think about

the future about my commercial model and

how do I want to run this and even

Beyond commercial model but it's not

about okay can my can my app be used

offline uh that's not these kind of

functionalities of a CRM system that you

need to check does it does it work with

vaa does it work with ex it's a very

different way of of thinking about how

do I see the future of my my engagement

model yeah what we're seeing is one foot

in both camps often the kind of the the

the way it's framed is sort of it's CRM

but it's kind of looking to the Future

so there's a lot of CRM of the future

progress processes yeah

probably CR yeah and that's like that's

the that's that's the headline sort of

the name but when you actually look in

the RFI often the first part of it is

this is everything we do today can you

do that so there's a lot of just like

you know parity going on um but when you

go into the technical discussion often

that gets quite interesting is to yes

this is what we're doing now and we need

to make sure that you know that side of

it but they are there's a lot of you

know on the the sort of information

architecture um business architecture

side of things lots of quite open-ended

questions around this is where we see

ourselves heading to a much more

Consolidated sort of platform Centric

approach how do you work in that in that

world because that's not where they're

today today it's very you know it's it's

very siloed I've got a marke are you

having these conversations with people

or business people you have marketeers

do you have marketeers sitting at that

table um I think they're defin I get the

sense that probably it's still probably

largely kind of customer operations isal

Excellence loudest yeah exactly Florent

the loudest voice but you do have a

strong you've there's clearly a strong

voice from the kind of C CTO office and

I think

in and the bigger organizations you've

seen them organize themselves around

like you know a global customer

engagement or customer experience sort

of capability set and then looking you

know one part of that might be field Ops

but there's other people with different

you know but it's trigged by the license

owners right in most cases being being

CTO kind of

people um well I supp ultimately it's

who's got responsibility for

the the sort of business applications

you know the tools that the business

runs on that's for CTO yeah um so

ultimately it goes up it goes up to them

but yeah you've it's it's it's quite

variable but it's just kind of fun that

you've got you know you do have this you

know this is written now it's a lot of a

lot of larger organizations and we're

kind of seeing it that whether it's

midsize or small organization they're

doing it as well um but I think one of

those challenges often is they haven't

done this for a long time um so they're

kind of like getting to terms with how

do I run the internal assessment first

I'm not just going to go out and ask a

bunch of vendors come in and Pitch to me

is they need to they kind of worked out

that we've been doing it the same way

for over a decade in most cases maybe we

need to think about it a bit differently

maybe that sort of that you know that go

forward set of capabilities you know

what do we want how do we want to run

our commercial model you know that's

going to require some different you know

different

approaches so oh guys sorry to interrupt

uh we have run out of time actually we

are eight minutes more but this is a

good discussion I mean what can you do

uh so uh let's wrap it up I want to

thank you guys for being here thank you

for taking the time and being our

speakers for the show uh it was lovely

to have you again and I want to thank

our attendees for taking the time into

the show as well to watching us and I

will see you all on October 18th where

we uh have another episode of Arma

Insight regarding AI asan so you're all

welcome and I will see you later on so

without without any further further

things to say