Pharma Insights 🩺

Well, hello everyone and welcome!

I hope you're having a great day

and I would like to welcome you all

to this new episode of Pharma Insights

the talk show created by Platforce

with the aim to connect, network

and exchange ideas with professionals
from the pharma industry

from all over the world.

As you may already know because
of the banners and things like that,

my name is Juliana Kreisel

and I will be a host, or one of your hosts for today

In today's discussion,

we will navigate the CRM landscape,

the shift from rep-centric to content-centric strategies.

We will dive into the dynamic world of CRM

and Omni Channel strategies

within the Pharma and healthcare sectors

and explore how these tools have changed

the roles of marketeers and medical professionals.

As you all know, I do not do this show by myself

because I'm a little...

I get nervous in the camera

so I will introduce my co-host and colleague from

Platforce: Stefan Repin.

He's head of marketing.
Hi, Stef! How are you doing today?

Hey, hello! Hey! Today I'm free,

I don't have any football to watch.

Well, unless you're rooting for Copa América,

but in Europe we don't have any football

to watch, so today you guys all

can glue your eyes to our wonderful webinar.

I'm really happy to...

We were actually discussing the football with our guests.

ha ha ha

We have a French person here
and we have a Belgian here today.

so they had some, a bit of a...

a conflict, but hopefully there's not
going to be any conflict on the webinar

because the topic is super interesting.

It's about the upcoming changes,
and you guys all know about this.

So we'll run this a little bit different.

Philip will give us a bit of a context

about what are we talking about

and please prepare your questions right away

because there's going to be
a lot of very interesting insights

and we have amazing guests today.

And just really like A star guests

Let's go on presenting them.

Sure, first we have Philip Vyt.

Phillip, how are you doing today?

Hey guys! Thank you for having me.

I'm really doing good.

Happy to hear that, that you're happy
with the soccer match haha

on the soccer tournament.

Yeah we didn't play well, but we continue and that's...

that's a positive thing, we meet France once again

It still hurts the last time we lost with them,

but we'll try to do a good job.

How good to hear!

Then we have Florent.
Hello, how are you doing today?

Hello, I'm doing well.

Actually you know I'm French

but I'm living 1 kilometer away from Belgium

so I will be careful what I say about about Belgian football

You know, Belgium guys,

if you want to search for him,
we're going to share his address later on.

No, I'm kidding!

Thank you! ha ha ha

And well actually going to football,

sorry I call it "soccer" I don't know why.

I'm Argentinian. We are...

Football is our life.

so basically we are enemies with Florent

but we are not, right? ha ha

No, absolutely not. No, no!

I think you won the last time right?

That guy named Messi, I don't really know him...

He seems kind of a bit old now but he's still good, right?

He's very good haha

I mean, what can you do?

I would like to introduce our last friend for today

our last expert: Chris Wade. Hello, Chris!
How are you doing today?

Hey, everyone! Thanks very much for having me!

Oh we're super happy to have you!

Any comments on the football match or the soccer tournament?

I'm Australian, so it is "soccer".

Sorry, guys. Football is a very different sport where I come from.

but I live in London now,
I've been here about 25 years so

I think England's all ready to be
knocked out in the semi-finals as usual

ha ha ha Wow!

Well, if you want... "Pharma Insights" is the name

of this incredible project,

or if you want soccer or weather information,

you can always connect with us

and we will be happy to share it.

Before we start with this incredible talk show,

I want to give some

comments I will say to our attendees

please drop your question, comments,

anything you want to hear from our experts

on the comment section below

and we will bring it up for them

so they can answer or connect with you.

Our social media guru and colleague Malén D'Urso

is moderating in the chat and the comment section

so don't worry

and my last information for today will be:

we would love to hear from you guys

what do you want to hear next

so we're going to also drop a form

if you can fill it out,

then we're going to choose the topic.

so without any further delay, and with the end of my

in Argentina we would say "parochial news"

I will go further with this conversation.

So, Stef, do you want to start with this talk?

Yeah! So,

As a matter of fact, Philip has prepared something for us

we have sort of a context, so
we'll start with the context, with the story

Right?

Now you go!

Philip, do you want to lead on this? Or do you want me to do it?

I think it's frozen.

I don't know...

Philip, are you frozen?

haha He got stage frightened. No, I'm kidding.

Okay, I'll start. If he comes back then I'll give him the stage.

So, the breakup: In December 2022

Veeva decides that it will not
renew the partnership with Salesforce.

The current license expires in September 2025

until then both parties are restricted.

Something new from Veeva.

Veeva announced its new CRM called VEEVA VAULT CRM.

which is a completely new CRM

And it's move to marketing automation.

Announcement of "campaign manager"
at the Boston Summit in May 2024.

A new move from Salesforce:
at this point it's like basically chess, I can see.

Salesforce announced a global partnership

with IQVIA to accelerate the development of life science cloud.

building on the OCE platform of IQVIA.

To be expected:

intermediate announcements are expected

by Salesforce at dreamforce September 2024

and Veeva Summit EU in November 2024

What's the big bang? The Big Bang is September 2025.

We expect Salesforce to launch its full life cycle

life science Cloud CRM offering

The deadline:

by 2029 all Veeva organizations should
have moved to VEEVA VAULT CRM.

or other solution

Seven, the data lawsuit

Veeva open data and IQVIA one key are involved i

an anti-trust lawsuit on the use of customer data offering.

This has been going on for a few years,
but we expect an outcome this year.

Yeah, ok.

Philip, are you here? Can you hear us?

Yeah, sorry I got disconnected.

I switched to my phone, so I hope that works.

but I think you already did the page, right? In my absence.

I did the page but you can start the comment.

Actually, from the past conversations I had

with people on this topic because this has been

a very high conversation topic on LinkedIn

we thought it was good to give some background

so when I was talking to Chris

a few months ago in London

we kind of saw like there's a few key dates

that you need to keep in mind

so all of this story started in December

when the marriage kind of broke up, right?

There's this kind of breakup story
between Veeva and Salesforce.

and up to then they've been working really well together

Veeva had a license with Salesforce

they paid I think around 50% to Salesforce

and they were continuing like this

but then Veeva says "okay, we're gonna stop this"

and this kind of put a whole series in motion.

and the next

kind of timeline you need to
keep in mind is September 2025

by that time the license is actually done.

and by that time Salesforce can bring in their own solution.

and also Veeva can continue with
their steps into marketing automation

so they basically make Salesforce
to move into the CRM part

and Veeva will move a lot more into marketing automation

and for Veeva this is really

This is Uncharted Territory, right?

they've been around the CRM,
and their CRM solution was rep-centric

Remember Veeva was always telling about

the rep is in the center of the orchestration

They're now moving away from

that sentence and they're broadening their value proposition

with campaign manager to marketeers

taking also other channels into the scope,

like email, email automation, marketing email automation,

their website, so it's really a big shift for Veeva.

That big bang is happening September 2025

but in the meantime

like in Fall we do expect that a Dreamforce

Salesforce will already give an update

around their move with IQVIA and
their life science Cloud solution

and the same thing will happen with Veeva in November, in Madrid

where they will probably give an update

on where they are with campaign manager

and they will do so in spring in 2025 in Boston again.

and I think Florent added this morning
this last bullet to the slides.

It's a key one, right?

Yes, the CRM systems they are moving, they're evolving.

but I think I'll let this to Florent

to discuss this data lawsuit in the back.

Florent, I think it's really critical to take into account this as well.

Yeah because I mean, depending on how IQVIA, how the lawsuit

is going to rule the behavior, the commercial behavior
of Veva and IQVIA could be very different.

Technically, nothing would prevent

IQVIA from saying we do not allow people

to use our data set in the Veeva proprietary CRM

because those guys have misbehaved
with our data in the past.

And then that would create a challenge for the companies

who would have then to choose clearly a camp

which is to go Salesforce/IQVIA

or to go Veeva/Open data

and that's today no one is exactly there

I think everyone has a bit of a mix
based on local market specificities.

So that could play a role
in the decision of people.

And maybe interesting when Veeva announced

in December 2023

when in Madrid they talked about the first
two customers that were signing up for Veeva Vault

that being Bayer and GSK

they actually said that they were also
would be moving to Veeva Open Data

So that data, when they said

"Ok, we're going to be the two first customers
that already raised our hands"

And said "we're going to continue with Veeva CRM"

they also said like and

"We're going to do that migration to another customer dataset"

So it does play, it does play a role

we do foresee

so it's not only migration of CRM

It's a lot more than that.

Yeah and I think it's interesting when you look at

the announcement that Salesforce made just

prior to the Veeva US Summit in Boston.

They spoke quite a lot about

that data landscape and

encouraging, you know, giving customers freedom

to make their own decisions about
what data they wanted to use

and particularly when you think about
essentially thinking about data cloud,

and that ability essentially to mix data sources

and then tether to that of course you have

you know the GPT side with Einstein

Once the data,

once that proprietary data from a provider whether it is

IQVIA, or is H1, or whoever that happens to be,

once that goes into that into Einstein

it will be impossible

to keep control of of its Providence

because that data then gets mixed

and new things get generated hence, you know,

the whole concept of generative AI

and at the same time IQVIA is making
their own announcement

around their GPT or AI strategies

so it' be really interesting to see

whilst the initial announcement was

we'll work with everybody

the reality of having IQVIA

as a primary partner

when they are, you know, so dominant, their Core Business is data

sets up you know an interesting

next couple of years between

put the systems to the side

you know if you're effectively locked in

to say if we're going down the salesport path

it will be essentially IQVIA or nothing else

unless they don't operate in that space

and on the Veeva side it has to be open data

or Compass or you know their other data services

it doesn't really help the industry

No.

It becomes... It's another...

It's that next level of locking,

which I don't think you know
is what nobody wants from this.

At least from the industry side is going from

you know going into a sort of...

you know situation

regardless of what happens to the lawsuit

Yeah and you also see that at this stage

because we're in this kind of vacuum

between today and 2025 announcements are pretty...

They're really careful with communication

When IQVIA, Salesforce-IQVIA partnership was announced

the press release was pretty vague

the same thing with Veeva communication

on LinkedIn it's pretty

they're really careful in what they announce

and it makes sense, right?
We're in this kind of vacuum in between.

and probably everything will go
crazy after September 2025 I think.

But I think, as you know, pharma companies

that's exactly the time we need

to think through I mean because

if today we were to choose between

I don't know Eseevo, Salesforce and Veeva, right?

to take those three

That would be choosing a tool

that would be exactly making the same mistake

I had the guys who are telling me
"I want to do something with chatGPT"

They, yeah, no.

What is your business situation?
What is your business challenge?

What is your opportunity?

And then let's define what are the best tools

to bring you where you want to go

and with whom do you have that conversation, Florent?

let's say you open that meeting

and have that conversation

because I think it's really important

who would you put around that table?

to have that conversation?

so I would put the GMs

of the company,

the guys who are actually owning the local pnls,

I would bring the Global Marketing,

Global Medical, Global Market access functions

and the people who do digital and tech

so that we all of us together define

okay in 2030 we will have to have moved

what are the capabilities the organization will need?

what will be the commercialization
model that we will have?

and therefore what are the data and tools

that we enable to deliver our objectives?

and if you take it the other way around

that's really the tail wagging the dog, right?

I mean

The second bullet that you said is

what is the commercial... what does
our go to Market model look like?

how is our pipeline evolving?

are we working into super rare disease?

are we still leveraging reps or going into reps plus?

do we have a key account or do we go fully digital?

so I think that conversation is really key

when we see now, when I now do an analysis

on who are the buying personas for tech solutions

It's IT. It's commercial excellence.

And then of course there's procurement, etc

But in this conversation people were focusing on

on really company strategy, launch strategy, TA, pipeline,

There really need to be different

people around that table because
the conversation is way bigger

than doing an RFP on

technical requirements

that you really need to take your time to
have that business conversation, what you just said.

and when I then look at the

people showing up at the Veeva Summits

and I think I don't know Dreamforce that well

but I can just reflect on Veeva Summit

it's basically business IT,

and then commercial Excellence

I do not see those marketeers

starting to discover

what is the whole world opening up of opportunities

and I think it

so I will... I think you know

naturally you will never see them
because they're not going to come

you need to bring them here

and that's for me the role of commercial Excellence

allied with IT in the organizations

which is to let's say open the chakra

of the marketeers and make them
understand that the world has changed

and that there are new ways
their customer, their own customer

wants to be interactive with.

They want to see different types of content on different media

with a different urgency

in getting an answer to a question and

these type of things.

And that the standard marketing practice

that is I'm going to bring you a 130 page detailing

is irrelevant in 2024.

And that if you do that

you shoot yourself in the foot

like literally you show everyone

that you have not understood
where the world has gone

and where your customers are.

And I think it's on us to educate those people.

to open them to the new world

Yeah and I think it's interesting about what we see

from a vendor perspective, is we see

a lot of organizations that at the moment say

particularly either larger organizations

which we think are sort of more innovative.
you know, further down

the digital path

what they're doing is what they haven't done

in many cases for over a decade

in some cases over 15 years

is actually running a business requirements assessment

because if you, you know, contrast

the world pre-Veeva

and hey to their credit

they've pulled off a blinder in

leveraging a cloud approach

that has made changed the way that people think about

buying technology because pre-Veeva,

it was every 3 to 5 years you would run a

you know a big reassessment

because your licenses would expire

You bought your licenses.

That lasted three to five years, something like that.

And it would be time for a new system

because it'd be new releases,
new versions, all of that.

That hasn't happened.

So the consequence is we've got

across the industry

there hasn't been a serious

reassessment of

what do we need these customer systems to do?

has the market changed?
how has our business changed?

Yeah, to your point, Florent, what do
we want to be doing in five years?

Hey what do we need to be doing now?

that we struggle to do

in effectively

using a solution model

which is probably more rooted in

frankly when I started working in

when I joined Dendrite back in 1997,

it was about etms, it was territory management.

and we're still largely in a territory management paradigm

with lots of you know parallel systems

in digital and marketing

which have to be sort of bolted on
at the back for, you know, at the back end

to try and make it work

so what we've kind of see now is

not people running a technology assessment

because they're not ready for that yet

they need the business assessment to be done first

bringing all those stakeholders
around the table and saying

how's it going?

you know, what is our market need?

what do our customers need? what type of brands do we have?

And, you know, what's the nature of decision making

around those medicines

that is going to dictate how
we need to engage with the market

until that's in place.

It's like a phony war,

the kind of you know

well this system does that, this does that,

until that process is complete

so we're seeing, you know, a lot of
the whether it's larger size

or you know midsize, specialists or

even quite small outfits getting very involved,

in that assessment process

but I think organizations of all sorts of sizes

and then they'll be ready to sort of say

"Okay, show us what you've got"

We know what we want to be looking for now.

hopefully it's been a robust process

and they've got some clear objectives

if we can't do these things,

you know however many points there are,

then that solution is not fit for purpose.

It can't just be business as usual

rolling from what we had to what we will have

on a kind of parity basis

you know it's too... you know

this is... And I think a lot of companies have

worked that out

and are doing that due diligence internally

at the moment and probably over the next year.

in part because they know that

the solutions landscape is very turbulent

we don't know

what vault's really going to look like yet

we don't know what life sciences cloud's
going to look like yet

and that thing is interesting because

one of the reasons

when Bayer and GSK was on stage

in December was

that their main... One of the main drivers was stability.

to stay with Veeva

and one of the very interesting things

that I heard I think it was from the person from GSK

saying nothing changes for the reps

because the look and feel of the front page of the iPad

will still remain the same

of course everything in the back is

so that I also see a lot of people

maybe not trying to bring in change

to the field Force because what they said is

I do not want to announce

or I do not want to make the call to call in the Reps

for X number of days to retrain them

and I think I understand this

at a certain level but if you keep on thinking like this

this is basically where you say "we'll never innovate"

because I don't want to educate my field force

so I think

but the call of the fear

for picking something stable

even when we don't even know how it will look like

but one of the drivers they're selling
is you're sticking with the same tool

which basically you're not, right?

and that's...

the way Veeva is bringing this in is that

content is at the center of everything

so they push a lot more their vault system,

their promo tool of saying

this is at the heart of every pharma company

so they want to

they sell basically the Vault system and
the CRM as more of an extension of this

so I do see that shifting

but that call for stability

or that drive like guys

this is a stable solution, stable setup,

is something that they really push forward

Guys, we have two comments.

The first one is from Ben that it's

in two different parts, the first one says

it's not showing here, I'm sorry,
but it says:

I see two main barriers to bringing marketing

Thank you. One sec.

I see two main barriers to

to bringing marketing truly as a stakeholder to the conversation

role churn, how can marketeers get the strategic

strategic level of input if they're
jumping teams and roles every year or so

Reliance on what's done before

if their marketing director or creative agency

never got their heads around a strategic CRM use

of CRM, CLM content and the data that marries

the two together?

what's the drive to change?

what other challenges do the panel see

on bringing the right people around the table

and importantly how do we change this

in practical terms?

Let me do this, so you we can all see it better.

One second.

Ok, it's going to load on your right side,
so you can read the whole question

that Ben is asking to the panel.

Those are very good questions

by the way.

Well they would be different...

I'm not surprised.

I think, I mean, if you look at... I think breaking

a couple of different points there but kind of

holding it on the last piece I think

it... the who's around the table,

it goes absolutely to both

what you know, Florent and Philip have said

Both articulated the need of bringing

the business leaders and
the business stakeholders, not just sales.

And that homes in on

what Philip was saying if you set out

one of the reasons to make a

what is a multi-year potentially decade plus

decision that, you know, I don't want
a hard life around retraining

you're putting your feet in concrete

you have to be prepared to change the business,

the business will under you

you know the market will drive change

because either your portfolio shifts or

you know how healthcare reinvestment is going to change

all of these factors of what you are

looking in the crystal ball to say where are
we going to be in 5 years, 10 years, or so forth?

That's what, you know, I guess

market access and these other strategic things

are all over

yet if it comes back to the decision maker is

not even commercial IT, it's just a sales IT,

where it's been for decades, you know.

The field was the huge, was the big beast.

So many people working in that area,

all of the infrastructure around that,

the systems, everything was unique to sales,

And that's changing. Yeah, that's changed.

Not even changing.

You know the technology landscape has altered

massively around that,
it's a lot easier to do

unified approaches integration

It isn't quite the same barrier that it used to be.

You know, through cdps,

things like that, where it's data cloud

or data verse, whatever that is

It is much easier to connect multiple solutions

than it was previously when it was

you know it was bringing Accenture,

bringing AI, bringing Delight to do

months of work to try and sort of build

all these connections

and that's part of what this shift is also going to be about.

It's going to be a huge amount of

consolidation and renewal about

modernizing stuff that's probably
been in place for 20 years

but it wasn't broken so it never got it never...

there was never any pressure to

to redo it.

Guys, the second question was

Let me... Give me one second because

Florent, can you...? The question I think...

I mean the same thing would go with any role, right?

Pharma will probably need to kind of set up

Okay, guys, this is a major shift, it will be phased out

this is probably a multi-year program.

It's not a... Even if you stay with Veeva or if you move,

there's always a migration.

So staying means change

and moving means change so

you cannot outrun the evolution.

That's the bottom line.

So even if people, you would have a jurn

that problem will exist in every role, right?

You need to have your talent development,

your Educational Systems at scale

so not face to face training but at scale

to keep people, newcomers, etc, etc

at the right pace, so that's something to tackle

I think Commercial Excellence is your partner there.

So I think that's the key one.

What I do see is

Veeva is building Marketing Solutions

for a marketing team that is not ready for this.

There's a difference between

should marketing be at the table? Yes.

Are they ready to start working with

dynamic segmentation, with email automation,
with landing pages?

It's just something they have not done before

and all of a sudden a tool opens this bag of tricks for them

which if you would go outside of pharma

marketeers are producing website content,

they are producing fully engagement journeys,

they are doing dynamic segmentation, funnels,

top, medium, low funnel.

It's just not what is happening in pharma.

So I think, I think

this is groundbreaking for the role of marketeers

and medical of course due to our industry setup

This is groundbreaking, so the change will be

will be there, but they're not ready this.

This will take beyond 2025

and I think

when we said people that need to be around the table

to take that decision but then I think

there's this transition table that needs to be setup

where I think

which talent are you hiring by 2025?

If in 2025 in October you post

"we need a head of marketing"

the role description would be very very different

so your talent management, your talent development,

is really gonna...

It's gonna shift if you want to explore all the tech features

that are out there in the near future.

and that's five to ten years.

And I guess, Florent, it's like if you look at your own organization

where are your marketers coming from now?

are they traditional? It's coming...
People are coming through the field

and have sort of moved out of field into marketing?

or are you hiring marketers?

Yeah so, I... I have...

I have a deep belief in progress and in human progress

when I see the new marketeers we are hiring

the ones that are you know 25 to 35 years old

they know modern marketing

and they are frustrated

by the dinosaur aspect of the traditional marketing of pharma

because they can't do what they want to do

and what they see their friends
working in other industries do.

So we need to leverage that energy

by giving them the... what I would call

pierre de Rosette or the the Catalyst of the transformation

for me the Catalyst of the transformation is the customer centricity.

If you give those marketeers

who understand data,
who understand dynamic segmentation,

the possibility to go and explain to their boss

that now they are segmenting, they are profiling customer

on 250 dimensions in real time

and that they can deliver a customer experience

that bring your net promotor score

from two to four and a half

I can tell you they're going to be listened to

and we need to create that post

we need to create that group of people

who are innovative enough to test things and then

be proud of their outcome and go around
and evangelize the rest of the organization.

I do not think it can be real top down

like we take all the senior people and we bring them in a room

and there's a bright consultant selling them stuff

I mean we've been operating with that model for years

and it didn't work

so I really believe it has to come from the roots of the organization

from the camps

from the sales rep themselves

saying this is what I do in my daily life

why would it be different?

by the way every customer I talk to

tells me I want to be able to get an answer by WhatsApp

in less than five minute

why don't we offer that service?

and when people start to think about it, they are like "oh yeah"

"of course technically we can do it"

So I really I really believe that

the change in the organization is going to come from the doers.

It's not going to come from the long-term strategic thinkers.

We have another question.

Let me post it. Oh, sorry, it's not this one.

It was this one. It says: will this lead to

some sort of merging of the roles between sales and marketing?

Where should the line be?

I'll just say how we work

in B2B in complex industries, right?

In complex buying Industries, what normally marketing does

they do the early stage discovery

and at a certain point marketing
hands over a customer to sales

and they continue with that customers until they

they buy that, and the switch is

at a certain level

what's the intent to buy?
how ready is that customer to buy?

is he aware of the product?

does he know? does he show certain elements?

does he join a webinar?

does he have conversion points in certain content pieces?

and that's when sales steps in.

In pharma we work today in a different way

basically marketing is not a marketing, they produce

besides the brand

they produce a strategy and
they produce content for sales rep

and I'm now putting it very black and white

but marketing does not engage

directly with customers today

I so that will change but I think

so that will change,

so the role of the marketeer will evolve drastically,

I think they will get a lot more hands-on

the question is can you still do this with one brand marketeer

in a country or does it need to be a brand marketeer

and a marketing doer role?

I think the last one is key

and does a role like SFE,

sales force effectiveness, how would that evolve in that?

because that's a bridging role, right?

I think both of them need to work very closely together

and the sales will need to understand

that somebody else also will
own engagements and touch points

that are not run by sales purely

So I think...

Yeah I've got a little bit different take on this one because

what I see that this

defining what's the optimal engagement for the customer

is the question of portfolio and a question of

where is your product in its life cycle?

the more we are in Specialty Care setting,

the more the key account manager

becomes the orchestrator of the Omni Channel experience

We need to upgrade those people

so that they're able to pull in every

single channel so they're actually

selling but they are selling by using

webinars, by using approved email,

by using all this type of stuff.

The more you are in established brands

and toward the end of life of the product,

the more it's unafordable

to have camps, reps, and all that

and then you pivot to totally digital strategy

where in fact the marketeer

becomes a sales guy

the marketer because he knows
the customer in the digital way

sells directly to the customer

and the real question for us today

is: even should that marketeer be an in-country marketeer?

or do we need to have a unit of above country marketeers?

who interacts directly with the customers in the countries

because they have more insights

on the customer in a centralized system

than the country can provide locally

with their knowledge of the country.

And that's a real debate and that you know

Global Marketing creating Global stuff and

cascading on local markets

everyone knows it never worked.

I received beautiful Global brand plans

when I was in Japan for four years

that were going straight to the chimney

to warm the cold night of Japan, right?

and because that was totally unusable

and so I think you know maybe

this is going to change specifically for the establishment.

I think the remark you made on

the different go to Market models

key account versus life cycle

I think it's a topic

in Omni channel it's spot on right by the way, Florent

because there is the full digital approach

has come and then so I think

the way Omni Channel kind of morphs

depending on the product

if you're in rare disease, if you're in specialty care

if you're in consumer health

that is very different

so how you put capabilities into play

is very very important. I fully agree with that one.

I'm gonna go one step further

than Floren because I think
one of the challenges we have is

we have still a very one-dimensional concept of customer.

so when we look at

that question of sales and marketing

everyone immediately piles into

if we're talking about sales,
we must be talking about the reps

and of course the Reps don't sell anything.

There is no buyer, you know.

The doctor, the hcp does not go out

and you know get their credit card out

and buy something so they are selling

influence, they're selling knowledge and

I have a great argument with

people like James and others out there,

there around that sort of that side of it.

but one of the challenges that we have

and to your point Philip about the

sort of complexity of the market operate

is that there are many customers

and there are buying processes

that are in play

when you look at what the commercial team are doing

what Market access is doing,

what country leadership or above country

teams are doing on

you know, access arrangements on pricing

on ultimately selling a product

and making that available for patients in

you know, that market or that institution

and one of the challenges when you look at the sort

of how CRM has been designed

it's basically ignored that reality

like a lot of commercial teams

Correct me if I'm wrong, Florent,

they don't need CRM

because it's talking about the bottom of the pyramid

it's all about hcps

not saying that they're not important

but there are layers of customer
and decision-making above that

which you have a whole multitude of people

internally who are, you know,

working together, collaborating,

coordinating what they're doing

because there's a a big payoff at the end of that process

of getting, you know, that new drug

you know, on formulary

accessible, all of that stuff and

obviously all of the postdecision pull through on

on is it actually happening?

how do we support you?

that's right so there's a lot of selling that goes on.

But it's happening outside

what we define as sales and marketing

in a lot of these conversations

and I think when you look at

some of this decision making

that's going to be going on over the next...

now and over the next couple of years

is, you know, we've seen the size of the sales forces

going in one direction

so at some point you know

a sort of singularity of

do you even have a salesforce?

in the classic concept of do I have a rep?

an hcp facing field representative?

If you do, you have to have a good reason for doing it

if you don't, you've got a good reason for not doing it

and that may well be because actually

they have no impact on buying

so when we think about defining this sort of new

way of the new sort of CRM Paradigm

is it more business to business?

is it more hybrid B2C, B2B?

If those are the kinds of conversations, which I hope,

are happening you know at

senior levels to say we've got to rethink

the way we work and the way we bring

our products to the market

because if we don't, we're just sort of

like circling an ever smaller opportunity

Yeah, no, but

that's totally totally right and

you need to build on top of that another layer

which is, you know, I think Stefan for instance

is a great marketeer

but he's a little bit the doctor woo of marketeers

in a sense that he is interested in tech

marketeers very often in Pharma

are totally not interested in Tech,

not interested in systems

we are running about 600 Salesforce marketing Cloud campaigns

the marketeers never log into any system

any system

We tried with Veeva, we tried before it with...

They don't. They live in PowerPoint land, and Excel.

You know, Excel.

And I really think

it's a big challenge if you plan to choose

your technology solution

thinking those guys will actively
do something in the system

you may have difficult mornings waking up

Honestly. So I really think we need to start from

what's the strategy?

what's the portfolio? where are the customers?
what do they want?

and then how do we commercialize our products?

irrespective of the people

you can always change the people,
you can always train them

you can up skill them but that

as Philip was saying that's going to be a multi-year journey

Yeah and you need to rethink

operating the same way we were

rethinking the operating model

in the whole conversation about centralized content

and modular content

this will have a similar conversation as well

but what I do want to do is

because we see a lot of challenges, right?

what I do very much welcome is

the courage that Veeva is taking to go,

step away from "everything is about the fields"

and that they do take on that journey

to bring us the tools like what we see

with Hubspot and Maretto

happening in the other industries

that they say we're going to open
and we're going to broaden

towards a broader engagement portfolio because

they have been only talking about

when they sat around Omni Channel

and they have a few I think pulse reports

where they say the 360 of the HCP

and they only talk about their channels, right?

which is rep, which is veeva engage

so they've always had like a slice of that pizza

what they now saying okay guys

we're going to take that courageous step
and going beyond

I think we need to welcome this.

Even campaign manager is not

but know it will be a long Revolution, right?

but it's the first time that in a company like Veeva

they stepped away from that

the rep is at the center of the engagement

and in some ways it will

but they really go beyond that piece, so I think

it's a courageous move

and I think it's very dynamic times

for us to be there

to watch this happening

because this doesn't happen every X years, right?

I think this is really good.

I think my call for Veeva would also be to

still try to reach what you just said

to still try to reach some of those
key influences in the marketing

atmosphere to really...

because they will need to start
thinking about a change even

because otherwise they will have a product

which will not get the adoption

so I think they will need to start

together with their partners and their ecosystem

not only saying this is the new tech which we have

but also how would you start enabling this?

adopting this? how does this fit with brand planning?

because otherwise they will be

selling licenses

and you know what happens when Tech is not used?

It's always the fault of the tech.

It's never the fault of the... so I think

Veeva will also need to

all of a sudden activate their ecosystem

in a whole new area I think.

To make sure it's not implemented

but they have an adoption Focus

but they do, to be...

To be fair with them I've seen more Veeva people

in the last three months than
I had seen in the previous five years

So... And that's coming from them

and it's all good engagement,

and all good discussions and a lot of

great will to collaborate with the pharma companies

so I think they are trying to get back onto

Ok, we are not eternal because we have decided

to start to, you know, cut the branch on

which we're sitting yeah

The question is relevant, this one. Yeah

Yes, please!

It's a great point that.

Yeah, because so... Most of the customers that I see

they have a tandem Veeva Salesforce

and they have this integration

Now I think this

would still work in the future

question is how good it will work?

because there's now a whole different conflict of interest

I think on this level.

but I would assume that this will still be able to work.

So, when you say

should I be sticking with Veeva?

and will their automation Suite, will it be on par with Salesforce?

Yeah, I think

this is a very very difficult move for them to make

because Salesforce is so far ahead

just from Tech

yeah just from a tech perspective,

the current solution that we have for instance

where you know things are integrated

in between Salesforce on one side

Veeva on the other side

where we start to use Einstein on Salesforce

to push things into Veeva and all that

that still is totally suboptimal

versus having one single platform

where we can have our Azure data Lake,

where we've got our layer of artificial intelligence

wherever we are in the system

whether it's in a screen used by the rep

or in a campaign from a marketeer

the AI is going to access the same data

and going to produce the same type of insights

or next best action or whatever

if we have the...

the more we have bridges,
and connections and stuff like that

the more complicated it is
and the more expensive it will be

And I think all...

does the aspect of Salesforce CDP or the

I cannot judge it from a fully technical level

the open of Salesforce of course

is open up to a very different

levels of industry, right? I think healthcare

the 15% they got from

Veeva is only 1% of their revenue

so basically it's just a tiny piece

so Salesforce will always be

the faster mover because they work with different industries

with different higher demands

so that's I think another interesting angle

and I think then

I mean there's a lot of comments on Salesforce CDP

not actually being a CDP etc but I think

if you're already focusing really on Omnichannel engagement,

dynamic segmentation,

the question of CDP and really taking a step back

and assessing that full Suite

that I think becomes important as well,
so it's not only

what about my tandem Veeva Salesforce?

Can I still make that work?

And do I need to take that decision?

I think the complexity is slightly bigger.

But it is a relevant one,

but they will...

They will... If

they keep hiring people who understand and know pharma

that one of the challenges, historical challenge of Salesforce was

their lack of expertise and understanding of Pharma

and try trying to push on us models
that were working on other industries

that couldn't work for compliance reason or

for whatever kind of, you know, commercialization model

like having leads with dollars in my CRM

doesn't help me in Europe, it's even

preventing me from using the screen

so I think they are learning

and they're hiring a lot of people from the pharma industry

which is a good thing

The reason why you think

they would really

set up this partnership at IQVIA to say

we know pharma, and now we have a partner with OC

that kind of...

because it gives them that partner, that life science partner, right?

I think they are buying their ticket into pharma this way

Obviously you've seen the shift of

you know the essentially

the product engineering team for oce

have moved

so it's, you know, it's a partnership,
but it's a pretty deep one

from that point of view, and so it gives them

that product, and that team behind it who have

I mean I know some those guys on it

they've been working in this space they go, you know,

driving all of that era

they've got decades of experience

in this place.

But I think one of the challenges of course is, you know,

business technology moves fast

you know and the challenge that

I guess, you know, when Veeva's

if you want to sort of look for kind of unfortunate coincidences

I think it was September 22 that

that it was announced in the investor call

that they're going to not going to renew

the partnership agreement with Salesforce

and kind of like

what was it? sort of 90 days later

the world is on fire with GPT

and you've got companies whether it's Microsoft

you know Amazon and Coke

literally spending billions of dollars

on server Farms,

on buying up every

Nvidia chip there is in the world

you know all of that side of things

As much as we'd like a nice cozy ecosystem,

you know that's just perfect

for our industry

it's a big world out there

and we can't afford to be myopic

and there is a real tendency to have
this kind of very inward inward focus

of let's just do the stuff that's just right for us

and somebody will choose something else

let's move them faster

you know change quicker, be more agile,

be a better commercial organization

and it will come back to haunt people

that you know they've made decisions on

on purely, on what was the rear view mirror

all I'm doing is looking at what was behind me,

and I'm not seeing what's coming.

So this is going to be, you know,

and we've seen in terms of those sort of

like announcements that have going on obviously

Salesforce are throwing everything

at Einstein you know

they've rebranded the product, you know: Einstein One

It is the new

sales force brand of the unified

solution data Cloud Einstein GPT

all of the different Cloud Solutions

but it kind of masks the fact but it's still separate solutions

Salesforce is a multicloud model

you know because

marketing is a separate Cloud environment to sales to service

and that has implications

to Florent's point on

you still got integration, even if those are

managed by the vendor

it's still separate systems

and these are those sort of big waves

of investment and

technology development

that take years to come to fruition,

you can't just do it in five minutes

and this is you know I think, I guess

where you sort of have the technology side

going sort of clashing heads with

maybe the people who are kind of like comfortable with Asis

but the Asis isn't going to work any longer

if you haven't got an army of reps

you don't need a CRM system that is designed

around armies of reps.

and we kind of... there's a lot of thinking still going on

but you do have people and companies

who are saying "Ok, I can see what's coming"

Effectively what we see is the application today

isn't going to exist in 3 or 5 years time.

It will be a generative

ask the question, get the answer

what do you want to automate?
what do you want to achieve?

that generates the process, that generates the application

You've got the data.

it's like it's a whole different
paradigm of working with technology

that just sort of like leads to

where we are today with our sort of mega rep

that sort of tries to do everything

and it gets a bit top heavy

you know looking pretty archaic

and that's part of you know

is these are some... Look at how Gartner talks about this

they're saying some of those big

themes of technology driven change

it's like that has to sort of coexist with

what the business is trying to achieve

but on the customer side,

they're changing too

they're taking full advantage of

digitalization in healthare, they're investing

heavily in AI to improve

diagnosis, to improve drug selection

it's not going to be down to who had the nicest sales

as to what my prescribing decision would be

it's been taken out of the hands of the HCP

in many situations, so that changes the nature of

of what is our Market, what is our commercial process,

which makes this you know

parts of the kind of CRM conversation

feel a bit kind of like quaint

Guys, we have a question.

We have a comment and then we have a question.

So I'm going to put it here so everyone can see it.

The question is

from John it says manufacturers are

challenged with hiring the kind of

technical expertise being discussed,

How are Veeva, Salesforce, and Exeevo doing with

stuffing up to address this transition?

going to be a lot of work on both sides

whether stay with Veeva, or move to SF, or Exeevo.

Were you, John, were you listening to
our conversation before the call?

Because this is exactly what we were talking about

Hahaha yeah, maybe he was and we didn't know

But I think you can answer how you do it

but it's clear.

It's clear that it's going to be a challenge for everyone.

Internally, for the companies as well

because we don't have you know as a pharma company

we don't have a lot of expertise on Veeva

Salesforce or Exeevo

we have expertise on what is the business process

that need to be supported by the system

and who needs to see which data to take what decisions

and then from there

when it goes to tech

we rely on the Accenture, the cognizant, you know

Accurance and other companies of the world

to help us run this business

because everything is in the cloud,

nothing is on premise.

The role of our own IT teams

in that space is generally limited to vendor management

so we are not going to be the one doing the heavy lifting

of the migration

we're going to pay people for that

so it's interesting to see what will be the offering

on the vendor side

Veeva, Salesforce and Exeevo

in terms of okay we are going to carry you

half way through the bridge.

Yeah, or you know

and you've got to you know pay the piper.

And it's I think there's a lot...

and it's a whole other area

where we see

technology playing you know a huge role

in automating things which had previously been

basically pretty manual

If you think about... If you talk to you

people on the AI side

who do system integrations work

and deployments and things like that

data migration, data mapping

was a big task

and a lot of that was sort of... it took months

to often do the data load

to get data ready, to bring it from an old system to a new one,

and it was you know

very painful for everybody because

you're kind of trying to run the business at the same time.

but not surprisingly, you know that doesn't stand still either.

So you've got a whole raft of

of companies who specialize in

the tools to aid migration whether it's

Salesforce to Salesforce

which in effectively that's what you do,

what you're talking about doing

if you're going to say I'm on Veeva today

and I'm going to move across to

different Salesforce based platform

it's a Salesforce to Salesforce migration

Salesforce to Vault

different migration question.

Salesforce to Microsoft

that's what we build on at Exeevo

Those tools exist, people like Sonata systems

they're kind of big in this area

where they're building those automation tools

to basically go out and look at

the data model that you have in your current system

analyze the data model it's going to go into

and work out and to how to

automate that migration

but to Florent's point

that doesn't say anything about the business processes

and of course when you look at the CRM tools today

often they're just forms

there's actually very little process

in the system

because there's not very much worklflow

and where it is it's

probably pretty much linked
to approvals and things like that

so often what you just have

is forms and forms and forms,
tables full of data

and then you've got a sales process

or a customer process over the top

and unless that customer process

is properly documented

it's going to stay still, it'll be the same process in the new system

so there's no kind of renewal or innovation there

or gets lost in the process

and you get have some pretty unhappy people

when it comes to switching it on

And there's a lot, there's a whole debate

on the price and the cost

of all that migration

I think there's a lot of comments around the cost.

and it's true I mean we have no clue
how much is going to cost

Today, the one thing I know is that

it's not sexy

I mean if you go to a CFO or CEO

you tell him: you know what? I need $5 million

to change the Veeva system
that we implemented five years ago

it's going to be: are you nuts?

you know why? you didn't even say AI

why would I give you any money if you don't bring AI

to my company? and it's just like right now

most of the companies are very busy

launching products and you know

investing in new technology and stuff

and you come with an old problem.
The CRM? Really?

I thought it was fixed.

So getting the right level of investment

is going to be a challenge.

Okay guys we are one minute away

so to have an hour of the conversation

I don't know if you guys wan to

if the attendees have any more questions or...

we can leave it with a cliffhanger

and we will see on

the second part of this incredible talk show

So I'm um up to what you guys want to do.

I think we...

we should launch a survey

for all the people who attended need the webinar

to know where they would put their money, you know what?

Everyone can put two euros, 5 pounds or something

and we give the money to a charity

when at the end we know who's going to win.

hahaha all right I love your strategy.

You've got such confidence in the UK economy.

haha okay

hey guys but I think it's because there's a lot of things

some of the topics like we always talk about the change for pharma

companies, there's a massive change

coming for medcom, for communications agencies,

content agencies as well

but I think September dreamforce I think

coming back with this group in September discussing

I'll be doing

trying to get the Veeva Summit as well

they're not really keen on

letting everybody in, they're pretty selective but I think

I think those will be two key events

for this team also to follow up
and keep that conversation going as well.

Yes, I agree.

well they can all invite us and then
we can discuss about what happened over there

So it's a win-win situation haha

If they invite us haha

We could do a podcast from San Francisco and from Madrid

I'm always up for that, you know what?

Stef, you heard that

so I need to travel to San Francisco

and then Madrid I'll let you know

We'll sit on the pavement outside, how about that?

Yeah okay haha

Ok, the, so you have heard.

we are going to have a second part of this incredible talk show

on September, maybe September, end of September

so be aware,

keep an eye on our posts so you can know when

and we will see you then

I would like to thank our incredible speakers
for being here, thank you so much.

Our attendees, this would not be possible without you

So thank you again.

and I will see you all on our next

Pharma Insights.

So thanks everyone!

Thank you! Bye bye!

Bye!